Real Marxists know Marx didn’t morally condemn the rich. He wanted the workers to take hold of the productive forces created under capitalism and organize it under a rational basis.
Yup. The great issue with capitalism, is that it wasn’t formally designed to enrich society as a whole. It merely is an upgraded iteration of feudalism. You can give a pig a top hat and monocle, but it is still a pig.
We will need a new Constitution, one built to acknowledge that Economics is power. The framers addressed politics and violence, but overlooked the fundamental impact that money has on society. Floors and ceilings on wealth should be implemented, so that the likes of Musk or Trump cannot exist.
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The American revolution was historically progressive. It led to the French and Haitian revolutions as well. I don’t think we have to single out specific figures, although Thomas Paine was on the radical edge. Jefferson was also a radical who supported the French revolution and yet he owned slaves. By now, capitalism has outlived it’s historical usefulness.
that’s why it’s ML, Marxist Leninism, and not just Marxism
What are you trying to say? I think Lenin had useful insights and strategies, but Marxism is a bit broader.
I’m not saying anything lmao they call themselves ML and not just Marxists for this reason
You mean Stalinists call themselves ML? For what reason?
Stalinists are ML
Rationalism sprinkled with authoritarianism, brutality and famine?
whatever you say
Lenin was a murderous brutal dictator.
Jesus was a socialist
This is a reminder there is no such thing as a “Christian” just people who pretend to be so they have an excuse to act unchristian like towards anyone they envy.
Jesus was a socialist
I was raised conservative Christian and I lost my faith in university. You’re 100% right but I sometimes feel a strong urge to “convert” back but only practice the cool parts. Like I’d one-up christians and quote Jesus’ most socialist verses at them. Maybe start a Facebook page about how the NT has been corrupted in this modern day, conspiracy-theorist style, but the hidden message is just Marxism.
I feel like somebody out there has embodied that, and I’d like to give them space to reclaim the word Christian for themself at least.
My father in law is a member of the communist party and was a theology professor at a prestigious university, he’s also a catholic and went to seminary (didn’t become a priest though). Point is that there are absolutely leftist Christians out there. You can lead by example.
But also keep in mind that there have been people out there spreading these words, the problem is that when they get too influential, they get disappeared or murdered
That is how most new branches of religion start. Instead maybe Christianity in its core is not what modern people think it is. The Bible itself is a collection and not a single written source. Think of it as a foss project that got forked early on, then a few people took parts of these forks and sample it into the versions we know today, which then also got forked with every translation.
So if you decide to do what said you should consider checking other religions such as Islam and see what you like there as well.
Oh I hate all religions you don’t wanna get me derailed
They’re all horrible.
I won’t split hairs and decide if one is worse than another.
They’re all anti human, and intolerant of logic.
“But what about my religion?”
Yeah yours too.
Science or magic.
One gives us vaccines cell phones and space ships
The other gives us anti vaccines, and a place for rapists to hide
I agree completely. I’m honestly a little annoyed by some of the antitheists in this thread. They should know that historically societies become less religious after quality of life and progressive outlooks develop, not before. So the way you “defeat religion”, if that’s even possible, is by raising living standards and fighting for equality. There are Christians who do more to end Christianity than most atheists.
Also using FOSS as an analogy for religion is hilarious to me for some reason. It works though.
Christianity is pretty much not about Christ at all, it’s about leveraging him to confer authority over the words of certain people.
You just need to ask yourself why you need to add all the extra baggage of a “god” when you can do and believe all of those things without it?
Rhetorical purposes. Religious people are more likely to listen to their god than listen to an atheist.
Who’s asking anyone to listen to an atheist? All of the things you describe are completely separate from religion. This need to add some supernatural force, with zero evidence, adds absolutely nothing of value.
Im talking about people I know personally. People who know I’m an atheist and are more likely to consider my point of view if I added scriptures. That’s all
Please do this.
I like imagining Jesus as a transgender man. Like, why would god have a Y chromosome?
I do get a little spiritual enjoyment out of it - the idea of a Christ like me, that I can aspire to be like - when I’m really stoned I can almost believe it.
Christ, the supernatural human born from a all knowning deity does not exist.
Christ as philosophical medium to carry a message of love, mutual aid and societal progress is very real.
I denounced Jaweh the demiurge in second grade, but his supposed “son” continues to be a rolemodel to me to this very day.
no such thing as a “Christian”
Huh?
Another socialist Christian a little more recent than Jesus: you might remember Dr. King. Christianity deserves much more criticism and this is an absolutely correct criticism towards most people who profess to be Christians.
But speaking so absolutely usually means you’re wrong. There are plenty of Christians who actually follow Christ and are working to make the world better.
There are plenty of Christians who actually follow Christ and are working to make the world better.
Well… Maybe not plenty. Some. There really could be more.
He broke the ten commandments tho
P sure that was god through Moses, not christ
I see what you did there
If you believe in Christian magic, do I have an offer for you: a bridge for a low low cost of however much you have left after tithing
As a non religious person I take issue with comments like these, it’s as though you believe that for someone to have a faith that they must be stupid, and if that’s the case then I have a bridge to sell to you for the low low price which matches the number of brain cells you have.
My manager is religious and quite possibly one of the smartest people I’ve even met, he’s also the owner of our software consultancy and the lead engineer that has contributed massively to open source projects.
I’m not going to pretend to understand why he is religious or whether I agree but all I can say is never met someone as smart as him and he is really nice. We recently got pay rises and a reduction in hours. He spends loads of free time helping his parishioners and doing community work and just generally a nice man.
I am offended on behalf of him for your reductive view.
Yeah humans have the ability to be simultaneously dumb as rocks and smart at the same time.
Exhibit A: PhD students
In this case we are hoping enough of the stupid (brainwashed) part of the brain is exposed and willing to invest in a bridge. It’s not complex.
I am offended on behalf of him for your reductive view.
Well that’s a compelling reason to change my mind? You’re offended on behalf of someone else that you admit that you can’t understand why they’re religious ?
You’re upset with me for being reductionist on behalf of someone else’s reductionist superstition?
Wow.
Why not. Ask him? “Why do you believe in magic? Do you really believe in magic?”
Second hand offense. Wow. Hot damn. I’ve never achieved that before.
No he doesn’t believe in magic. He just believes that there has to be a creator of sorts and that doesn’t necessarily need to be a person, it could be anything that we can’t comprehend.
I don’t believe the same but it would be mighty arrogant of me to claim my believe in we ended here out of randomness is any more convincing.
So… magic.
It is pretty magical that we are here.
I don’t believe the same but it would be mighty arrogant of me to claim my believe in we ended here out of randomness is any more convincing.
You know you can just say “I don’t know.” It’s not one or the other. How about don’t believe either until we have compelling evidence explaining the origin of life?
That said, science already has far more compelling evidence on its side than religion regarding this topic. Which, as a reminder, has all of 0 evidence supporting it.
You know you can just say “I don’t know.”
If you take that to its logical conclusion you end up at “I cannot doubt that I doubt, therefore, I am” (which is what Descartes was actually up to) and need a leap of faith to re-introduce even the existence of the material world because solipsism has just as much tangible evidence when considered from that refuge of pure egg-headed rationalism.
That’s not so say that such a position is untenable, or unworkable, you could e.g. say “I will take any position that is compatible with both materialism and solipsism”, hedging around the question. Point I’m making is that you’re a reddit atheist who hasn’t thought as deep about any of this than you think you did. You’re not interested in the question, you’re interested in distancing yourself from a position you associate with people who have hurt you in the past. Valid, of course, but how about focussing on the “hurting people” part instead of “can find meaning in the concept of a god” because the two are, indeed, orthogonal.
I really don’t care what has evidence and what doesn’t. If someone is nice and not harming people I do not care if they believe the sky is green.
This is a reminder there is no such thing as a “Christian”
I swear they need to change the name of the “No True Scotsman” fallacy to “No True Christian”
I don’t know about “true Christian”
But no sane grown up believes in the magical Christian story. My opinion is that there is no such thing as a “Christian”
No matter how much they claim to believe.
They only say it to have “righteousness” and the moral high ground when they want to abuse or kill or oppress or steal from someone who is not a “true Christian” like they claim to be.
But no sane grown up
that word is doing a LOT of heavy, heavy lifting lol
Not all Christians follow American Christianity. But too many do.
Jesus is the og communist
“Watch me backflip onto this this market table to make space for the MAGA hats” - Jesus ‘The Donald’ Christ.
of course not. god goes with red wine. money goes with white wine.
White “whine”
I would have gone sideways and said “Willem Dafoe”!
don’t care. destroy all religion for the future of humanity.
Will never happen, there’s a sucker born every day.
that’s why we have to be proactive and regulate our society.
Jesus literally REFUSED to be dragged into ideological politics of his time (John 6:10-15)
He even defied those who tried to put him to test and force a political statement come from him against the current political leader, the Caesar, by trying to have him a forced position on taxes (Mark 12:13-17)
All this makes sense, as he himself said about himself and his followers that they are not part of this world (John 15:19)
He LITERALLY made his teaching revolve around god’s kingdom, not any human ideology (Matthew 6:9, 10)
I mean FUCK, even Satan himself offered him to be the ruler of the whole FUCKING world and he rejected it flat out (John 14:30)
He did care about people, and alleviated the physical suffering of many, but he made clear his and his followers priority should be preaching and teaching God’s word (Mark 1:32-38)
And why wouldn’t he, after all, part of his teachings are that all the world governments and ideologies are to be destroyed. (Revelation 16:14) Every. Single. one.
So anyone using his teachings to attack whoever and linking him to your ideology, calling him a representative of brand of collectivism, should get down from any high horse they think they are, it’s not doing you or them any favor and they clearly don’t know what they are talking about.
Case in point, people talking about a hell existing in the bible when there is none. That’s basically all it takes
This is a lot of mental gymnastics going on here. Reading John 6:10 and Mark 12:13 as “Jesus wouldn’t agree with Marx because Marx is of this world and Jesus is only about heaven” is a hell of a leap.
Your analysis would come off slightly less disingenuous if not for the fact that you’re a very active poster in the conservative groups and not once have you raised any objection to the religious right being neck-deep in the running of the country. Seems like “don’t co-opt Jesus to push your politics” only applies to leftists in your world.
This has got to be one of the most disturbing posts I’ve seen in a while. You’re actively warping the Bible and trying to bend it to fit your narrative. You constantly leap to conclusions that are at best farfetched, or downright blasphemous…
John 6:15 Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.
This comes in the followup of the feeding of the 5000. The crowd, amazed at his power, looks to Jesus as a national savior - someone who will overthrow the Romans and restore Israel’s power. Jesus shows very clearly that he does NOT want to seize worldly power - his mission is to change people’s minds and hearts. Literally, his is an ideological mission, the opposite of what you wrote.
Mark 12:17 Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.” And they were amazed at him.
Jesus doesn’t say politics don’t matter. He masterfully draws a line between what are worldly concerns, and divine allegiance. Paying taxes doesn’t threaten your relationship with God, but confusing political loyalty with spiritual devotion can.
It pains me how the core of Jesus’ message here is being missed: in Genesis, we are told that humans bear the image of God. What Jesus is saying is that the coin has Caesar’s image - give it to him. But WE bear God’s image - so we should give ourselves to God. The Pharisees and the Herodians understood this, and were amazed, and yet somehow the best we can do nowadays is to completely miss the beauty and the meaning in his message, and instead mistake it for “Jesus doesn’t do politics”.
John 15:19 “If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.”
Again, you disregard the context and you’re try to make it sound like Jesus is arguing that him and his followers are not involved in the affairs of this world, when the very opposite is true. Jesus is speaking to his followers just before his arrest, so he is preparing them to face the persecution and hardships that are to come. They are very much a part of this world, and they want to change it - because of that, they will suffer greatly. What Jesus is telling them is to not compromise their values for the sake of fitting in; to be faithful even when they are criticized or mocked; that they are not without a tribe, but instead they are part of a very different one.
Matthew 6:9, 10 “This, then, is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.’”
Again you keep pushing your narrative that Jesus is talking about something other than human ideology, when your very quote says the opposite: “[Father’s] will be done, on earth as it is in heaven”. What this prayer says is we want Jesus’ teaching to shape the world, and our lives, right now. This isn’t some abstract wishful thinking, this is a pledge that we will work so that God’s will be done through us, now, everyday, in the real world.
Please, spend some time reflecting on the context of the words and why they were spoken. If you pull them out of context and mishmash them in the way you want, then sure, they may have come from the Bible, but they’re are no longer God’s word - they are your own, so don’t misattribute them to Jesus.
Man, I wish you’d offer bible courses
I suspect maybe you wouldn’t want that! I’ve spent some time learning about religion and the Bible, and yet I’m an atheist, I don’t believe God exists.
While I don’t see the Bible as the literal word of a god, I do see it as a remarkable book that contains many important teachings, and it has definitely shaped a big part of my morality. I just wish it didn’t focus so much on blind obedience and faith in some higher power, so that we could look more closely at the ways in which it shows us how treating each other with love and respect would create a wonderful place for all of us, without having to wait for some future heavenly reward. I can see how that would hurt its success as a religion though…
In any case, I’m sure there’s people out there that share the mindset, and that are much more eloquent than me. Personally, my red flags are preaching about obedience, trust and faith. For me these are NOT the core of the gospel, quite the contrary. Jesus constantly refers to the “kingdom of god”, but to me this isn’t some place where god is the ruler: it’s a new reality, here on earth, where the poor, the meek, the broken, the sinners, the “lepers”, the outsiders, are all worthy of love and respect. It’s about accepting suffering and sacrifice, not in the hopes of getting out of here and being rewarded elsewhere, but because we all need to be willing to share our part of the burden and the work of making the world a better place.
Urgh, that sounds a lot like preaching, so I’ll shut up. You do you. But if we’re kind to each other, we’ll all have a better day.
Yeah you just made me double down on my statement. An atheist who actually finds value in the moral code in the bible while acknowledging its faults and negative influences without just yelling Bible Bad Religion Bad Fuck God. I’ve always wanted to read the bible with better context and explanations like in a literature class, but I never found this balance.
Don’t worry, blasphemy is just a way to control workers or peasants.
Fuck jesus! Jesus is an asshole! God is evil!
See, nothing happened…
Fuck jesus! Jesus is an asshole! God is evil!
I have no issues with that, that’s a legit opinion. Also 100% agree on blasphemy being a tool of social control, there’s no shortage of historical examples to prove it.
My issue is with misrepresenting something to try to prove a point, like the guy I replied to was trying to do.
Fair enough!
Still, don’t forget it’s just an old book, interpreted by people over the ages too…
Indeed it is, but it’s a fascinating book regardless. Unfortunately it has been used to justify horrendous things almost from the moment it was written, and as shown above, continues to be used to try to just anything up to this day.
There are way more interesting books out there …
Use of undeclared identifier 'jesus'. Unused variable 'Jesus'. Undefined type 'evil'.That didn’t compile.
Also, “Jesus” and “jesus” are different.
He was absolutely not adverse to fucking some shit up when he wasn’t happy either. Not big into Forex.
You make Jesus sound like a socialist
The Bible describes them as a good person. What you imagine as socialist is probably just bring a good person.
Well, socialism is pretty specific about helping the sick and the poor, so was Jesus. Jesus hated taxes, but if they actually went towards helping others, I’m sure he’d be all for that too.
How did he hate taxes? He hated corrupt taxes.
When have taxes not been corrupt?
Why would jesus even be swayed by satan if he is fucking god?
Christians are so weird
I presume the question was mostly rhetorical, but since it was asked, allow me to indulge myself:
The point of the story was precisely that, to affirm Jesus identity as god. This story starts out when Jesus is baptized, and a voice from the heavens says “this is my son”, and Satan then challenges his identity: “If you are the Son of God…”.
There’s more nuance to how the Bible sets this up, for example there’s the throwback to Adam, who was also tempted (the whole apple thing), but failed. Here Jesus is under much more strenuous circumstances yet resists, implying that he is not just a common mortal. However, this isn’t asserted through magnificent displays of power, which would be the simplest way, but by being steadfast and humble. This aims to establish the kind of philosophy that Jesus will preach, which isn’t about magic or ego or political control - just by resisting Satan, he defeats him.
Arguably, this also aims to enshrine values like obedience, humility and trust in a higher power, and thereby establish the basis of the power that the Church wants to exert over humanity.
The Bible is a remarkable work. Granted, the writing and analogies are a bit dated so it doesn’t read as well as a modern book, but it’s fascinating nonetheless.
You cite Revelation, but I’m fairly sure Hell is described in Revelation. Otherwise decent addition
I disagree strongly with it being a decent addition, and in fact argue (in a post here) that it’s a horrible and very disingenuous misrepresentation of what the bible actually says.
So they rationalize it that god is money
Relevant quote from St. Basil:
"Who is the covetous man? One for whom plenty is not enough. Who is the defrauder? One who takes away what belongs to everyone. And are not you covetous, are you not a defrauder, when you keep for private use what you were given for distribution? When some one strips a man of his clothes we call him a thief. And one who might clothe the naked and does not—should not he be given the same name?
The bread in your hoard belongs to the hungry; the cloak in your wardrobe belongs to the naked; the shoes you let rot belong to the barefoot; the money in your vaults belongs to the destitute. All you might help and do not—to all these you are doing wrong"
"Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
I have always loved how simply Jesus spells it out.
As a kid, I always felt it was so implausible that the Jews would kill Jesus. Yes he claims to be God, which is a no-no, but how can a message of peace and love be so divisive? As an adult, I’ve come to realize that it’s divisive to people who are angry and filled with hate, to people who hate peace and love. The Pharisees of 30CE are the exact same as most Christians today. If you walked in to some Trump country Baptist church today and flipped over the collection plates and told everyone there they were going to hell because the want to deport immigrants instead of help them, you’d be shot for sure.
you’d be shot for sure
Do you think it’s a coincidence that MLK was only shot once he started speaking out against the rich and unifying the lower class (of all races)? I’m not saying there was a conspiracy (though I wouldn’t rule it out) or that MLK was the second coming or a prophet, but it’s pretty clear he started making the ruling class nervous once he started talking about class war.
There absolutely was a conspiracy! Never forget the FBI murdered Fred Hampton and Mark Clark. Never forget what the FBI did to the Black Panthers and the American Indian Movement.
Everyone needs to know about COINTELPRO
It’s always a good time to remind people that MLK’s family proved in civil court that the government killed MLK (either through intent or negligence) to enough of a degree that the judge was convinced and awarded them restitution on the charges. And the only reason that the case didn’t go to a criminal court was because every judge who read the case refused it.
Hell we have a copy of the letter the FBI sent to Dr. King instructing him to kill himself and save them the trouble.
Whoa, TIL about this.
Yeah, but you knew, deep down.
Mario Luigi King
I am sending this to all my neo-lib and conservative leaning friends who go to church every day while people are being imprisoned and having their lives and rights taken away.
I don’t think it was the message of love that did it, more the implied message of “Jews are no longer the only people with the right to heaven and god - everyone is”
The Jewish people who saw the value/truth of this message became Christians. The ones who didn’t like the idea of not being The Chosen Folk anymore were the ones who called him a heretic
Where I’ve come in regards to the Pharisees is that they were willing to make violent concessions for the sake of a tenuous status quo. Passover was often a flash point of rebellious activity in Jerusalem (which is why Pilate is there in the first place; to keep Jewish people suppressed and to put down any riots or revolutions from would-be messiahs). Violence was not infrequent at the time. And every time there was violence, Rome would take away more freedoms from Jews.
So the Pharisees are put in a position to see Jesus as a potential catalyst for Roman violence. So they figure that if they help hand over another would-be messiah then they can have a quiet Passover. But this mentality winds up being a sort of Leopards-eating-faces situation because Rome destroys Jerusalem a few years later anyway (due to a would-be messiah—just one that the Pharisees thought might be the real deal this time).
Yeah but he also said to love each other, and people quickly realized that he was wrong.
And then, one Thursday, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change…
Shut up!
Fuck arbitrary value. There, I said it.
Uh, question. How does one put their penis in this? A-asking for a friend…
Just gonna say for those uninitiated, if memory serves right this little comic is from Chick Tracts. Which are fucking wild basically if you can think of an Evangelical bigotry or conspiracy theory they are all fucken in. As for how a bunch of them became memes my money is on The Bible Reloaded, though I think they were already memes before then.
That one about roleplaying games alone was destined to be a meme.
Yeah I’m pretty sure that one in particular dates back to either somethingawful or YTMD.
Check out a Tijuana Bible if you want to see some wild shit
You know, I’m something of a leftist myself.
You never know when some lunatic will come along with a sadistic choice.
And then there was a fire fight! *rapturous dancing*
That’s not Jesus, that’s Willem Dafriend.
You know, I’m something of a saint myself
Even better
I don’t know where that candid jesus image is from but it has so much Dicaprio Raising Drink energy that if it hasn’t been memed already then it should
Pretty sure that is Willem Dafoe from The Last Temptation of Christ.
And yeah, it has Buddy Christ energy.
He’s something of a messiah, himself.
I know there were a lot of things about Last Temptation that were very difficult for a lot of people to cope with, but to me the most challenging thing is Willem Defoe as Jesus H. Christ.
He is risen.
wink
All those NY accents among the disciples lol
Precisely from the scene where the disciples realize that the water has been changed to wine at the wedding. John looks over at Jesus and sees that image. Jesus also gives a wink iirc. As one devoted to our Savior I feel like that shot absolutely captures what Jesus was like when He walked our earth.
Ready for that
It’s a pretty funny scene, too.
“There’s not enough wine!”
“What’s in there?”
“That’s water, I put it there myself.”
“Look again.”
[Checks. It’s wine.]
[Jesus delivers face above]
